What Does Citizenship Require of Us? With Russell Moore

Welcome to all of you joining us for today’s online conversation with Russell Moore, where we’ll address the question, what does citizenship require of us? We’re delighted that so many of you have joined us for this online conversation. I believe there’s well over 1200 of you joining us from all corners of the Earth, over 18 different countries represented. So if you haven’t had a chance to do so already, drop us a note in that chat feature. Let us know where you’re tuning in from. It’s always just really encouraging to see the community of people from all over the world. I also want to give a special shout out and welcome to our over 135 first time ever registrants! We’re so glad you’re here. And if you are one of those folks joining us for the very first time or otherwise new to the work of the Trinity For we seek to provide a space to engage the big questions of life in the context of faith, and to offer programs like this online conversation to do so, to ultimately come to better know the author of the answers, and we hope today’s online conversation will be a small taste of that for you today. The question that we’re going to look at today is one that Christians have wrestled with since Jesus walked the earth. The command to love God, our neighbor, even our enemies, can often flatly contradict the world’s exaltation of power and domination. And the obligations that can attend citizenship in the Kingdom of God are often in tension with those of the kingdom of man.

So how should we reconcile Paul’s reminder that our primary citizenship is in heaven with his admonition to respect and obey the always fallen and often unjust governing authorities on Earth. What are our obligations as citizens in a fallen world? And to help us engage this question, I am so delighted to get to welcome our guest today, someone who has wrestled with this topic and its implications, both as a theologian and a policy wonk, a public intellectual and an institutional leader, and so much more. Our friend, Russell Moore. Russell is an editor at large and columnist at Christianity Today, where he previously served as its editor in chief. He’s also an ordained Baptist minister. He served as the president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission,from the with the Southern Baptist Convention, as well as the provost and dean of Southern Seminary, where he taught theology and ethics. He’s the author of several books, including his most recent and thoroughly excellent work, Losing Our Religion An Altar Call for Evangelical America, which we were delighted to get to host him for an online conversation just a couple of years ago about that. And he’s also worked, perhaps lesser known as a staffer, a congressional staffer on Capitol Hill, as well as a fellow at the University of Chicago’s Institute of Politics. In addition to all that, I am very proud to say that Russell is a senior fellow of the Trinity Forum. So Russell, welcome.

Well thank you. I’m always thrilled to be with the Trinity Forum. If it didn’t exist, we would be praying for something like that to exist. And I think we would probably think it was impossible. So it’s really a grace of God to have this community.

Well, that’s really kind to say. And we just really appreciate you. So I want to start out our conversation with one of the most basic requirements, biblical requirements of being a citizen on Earth. And that is to pray for the governing authorities.first Timothy two has a lot on that. There are other verses as well, you know, and we tend to think of this as almost a fairly rote or even banal kind of commandment. But when it was issued in Roman times, it was actually a fairly revolutionary and,you know, politically charged command because it acknowledged that there is there is a God in heaven that is not the Roman emperor.but even today, there are implications of the biblical command to pray for those in authority. And you recently, a few years ago, wrote a column about it’s really important to do so. Why don’t we start off with what can seem like one of the more, I guess, easy of the biblical commands, or concerning our citizenship here on Earth? Why is it so important for us as citizens to pray for our political authorities?

Well, I don’t think it’s easy.and the reason I don’t think it’s easy is because, sometimes, especially in an environment like we have in, in America the last 40, 50 years, to pray for somebody seems as though, you’re endorsing them. And so one of the things that tends to happen is that we, we feel pressured to pray straightforwardly for leaders that we approve of. And then when it’s leaders that we don’t to spend a lot of time kind of filling in. Lord, would you redirect this, this, bad person who’s making these bad decisions and guide toward better, so that always becomes a kind of a tension for anybody, wherever they are. And so if you can find yourself praying the same way for leaders that you like, as opposed to leaders that you don’t. That’s a that’s a really difficult and a hard thing to do. And part of that is exactly what you said in the first century to pray for the emperor.takes the emperor down a notch, or quite a few notches, because you’re saying this isn’t a god. There’s a god who needs to look over and to watch over this person.but it also is putting you in a stance of saying, I’m, I’m actually a part of this society. And I actually, I actually do want the flourishing of everybody here. That’s just a lot harder than it seems. In the same way that, you know, when in just in our personal lives, when Jesus says, pray for your enemies.that sounds easy to do. And it’s really, really hard to do because I find it a lot easier to pray for my enemies by saying, God, would you just show this person the error of her ways?rather than to say,I want this person to be actually blessed and to actually thrive. That sometimes can get a hitch in your throat.but that’s the entire point.

You know, as you mentioned, with any earthly authority, they are going to, no matter how just and earnest they are, even the best are fallen creatures who are error prone. Often our authorities are not the best that the tendency towards injustice and or the tendency towards error may be more pronounced, than we would like. And so one of the things I’m kind of excited to dig in with you today is like, what does Romans 13 mean when, when it talks about submitting to earthly authorities?and in some ways that Command. The biblical command looks fairly clear and straightforward, but can certainly be quite fraught in its application. And you have noted that often Christians invoke it, most often not. When we feel the urge to quiet our consciences and not necessarily question something that seems unjust. So just from like a big picture view, how should we understand this obligation of authority to us, of obedience to earthly authorities?

Well, I, an associate pastor back in the day for John Stott, mentioned to me not long ago that Stott once said, every time you mention Romans 13, you need to also reference revelation 13. And every time you reference revelation 13, you should also reference Romans 13, because they’re in tension with one another and the one you have, the authorities are legitimate. Show submission to the authorities in the other, you have the authorities becoming a a beast. The images using their and those who submit, are actually in the wrong. And so there’s a real tension here. Not a contradiction, but attention if you think about Romans 13 and think about, think about how this is being written. I mean, I think one of the things that makes things difficult for us in one way, makes it easier in others is the fact that our Bibles are broken up into chapters and verses.makes it really easy for when you say Romans 13, we know exactly what we’re talking about. But the original letter, wasn’t divided up into installments. It’s one ongoing, coherent argument. And so you have Paul having said in Romans 12, don’t be conformed to the world, be transformed by the renewing of your mind.don’t enact vengeance on other people.don’t. Don’t overcome evil with evil, but overcome it with good.

I mean, so you have all of this being written to the church, and then in Romans 13, he says, the powers that be, the authorities are ordained by God to bear the sword. So think about what what’s he’s not here. Paul is not writing to citizens. He’s writing mostly to subjects. So we have an understanding of citizens because we’re in a we’re in the kind of system where the people, are, are the, the top level authority in at least that’s the way it’s supposed to work. That’s not the case in the first century Roman Empire. So if you think about what he’s saying, saying don’t show, don’t show revenge, don’t try to, carry out vengeance says there is a legitimate place for public order, But it’s not with you. It’s not with individuals carrying it out.so it’s a it’s an argument that’s, that’s going forward. And if you look at what’s happening in Romans 13, it not only says there’s a legitimacy to order in the public arena, but it also puts a limit on it. So what Romans 13 does is to say, here’s why the authorities are present to commend that which is good and to punish evil doers. So that’s not a whim on the part of the of the authorities. There’s a moral accountability in Romans 13 for those who are making, making the decisions as well.

So sometimes I think when people, when we, we tend to think, well, Romans 13, what that means is that everything that the government Legitimately does is right. Which is not what Romans 13 teaches. And it also, I think we sometimes don’t realize how different our position is in the sense that to be a citizen is an office holder in this kind of system. So if you if you think about, for instance, you think about Pilate, Jesus standing before Pilate, my kingdom is not of this world.well, we’re standing in the place of Jesus in the sense that we’re part of the body of Christ all the time. We’re also standing in the place of Pilate, because we have a certain degree of power to make decisions that are going to affect other people, and for which we’re going to be morally accountable. And I think sometimes Romans 13 and it also just like with praying, we we kind of tend to, if we’re not careful about it, flip back and forth, between, Romans 13, the government has the authority to do anything if I like the government, and then to turn to we’re going to defy the beast.if we don’t like the government. And that’s not the criteria. It’s a moral criteria.

Mhm. So in terms of defying the beast, you know, the US has a very interesting history because on one hand, so many of our, most important, most successful reform movements were led by people of faith, whether it was abolitionism or civil rights or women’s suffrage or the abolition of child labor, you know, temperance and so on. You know, there was almost always faith based, faith based leadership. At the same time, there was also a lot of faith based leadership in opposing those reforms.you know, Martin Luther King Jr’s letter from Birmingham Jail was addressed to white clergymen who were making the case for, you know, slowing down, not ruffling the feathers.you know, obedience to authorities and the like.how do we distinguish between when, sort of contrary action, even civil disobedience is justified or even necessary?

Well, I think it takes a great deal of discernment. And here’s, here’s the reason. I mean, if you look even at the book of Daniel, you have at least three completely different models, or maybe even more for how to resolve that question. You have, at the beginning. Daniel is there. He’s even being called by a Babylonian name.doesn’t seem to fight that, and exists within Nebuchadnezzar’s world.pretty compliantly when he’s asked to eat the rich food of the king. He negotiates. So it’s not. I’m going to not obey you. It’s. Why don’t we do it this way? Why don’t you let us eat what we’re allowed to eat, and then we’ll come back and check in on it. So you have that. Then you have situation where Daniel and Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego all have to say, we cannot comply because to comply with this means that we will actually have to send against God. And there’s disobedience to that edict. So it’s not it’s not that we always have an easy answer.it’s that we’re evaluating this in terms of what am I actually being required to do and who is being, who is being harmed by this, and how can we remedy it? So, I mean, you mentioned letter from Birmingham Jail.I think we can’t understand letter from Birmingham Jail if we don’t. Sympathetically inhabit the mindset of the people Doctor King was writing to. To rebuke them because this was not to Bull Connor and to, segregationists. These were to the, the, the white pastors who were the most sympathetic, to. These were not segregationists for the most part. They were the people who were probably, I know, at least in one case, enduring a lot of hostility for their from their congregations for being too pro-civil rights.

And so they’re kind of looking at all of this and saying, are you sure you’re not helping us? Because the civil disobedience and the sit ins and the, the various things, that’s just bringing the temperature up and we’re trying to bring the temperature down. And of course, what Doctor King is saying there is it’s really easy for you to say, slow down and be patient.because you’re, as he put it, putting a timetable on justice for somebody else.now, King believed there should be, patience and incremental. That’s why he’s trying to appeal to the moral consciences of people around him and work step by step legislatively. But he wasn’t trying to bring down the temperature. He was realizing. Part of the problem is that the people with the power don’t really think this is that much of a problem, and so we have to actually bring that to the forefront and to the table. And so I and I think King was right, in that but it wasn’t as easy to see for everybody at the time that that was the right strategy. So I think sometimes when we’re in a situation, we really do have to spend a lot of time sort of discerning what situation are we in. How does this parallel with maybe some things that we’ve learned in the past? What kind of motives are we? Are we operating from in order to in order to figure that out? Because it’s it takes several steps of moral formation to do that.

Yeah. You know, along those lines.one of the other obligations of citizenship that’s, very clear in the Bible in which you referenced earlier, is seeking the good of the city, seeking the good of one’s neighbor as well. But a lot of times, systemic injustice is harder to identify than sort of the acute cases of violence or you know, an outrage that’s a discrete, acute, dramatic and the like, you know, often the systemic injustice in terms of diminishing, devaluing, a group of people, is is so accepted as to be almost invisible.and how do people of faith, you know, develop is one of the biblical obligations of citizenship?the discernment to see, what which may be the norm, is yet in just even an affront to God.

Well, I think the first thing is the moral discernment has to be long term. I mean, most of the decisions, whether we’re talking about something like this or we’re just talking about in our own personal lives, most of the time, it’s not about something we’ve prepared for. It’s about something that over time, we’ve been shaping our intuitions enough to even recognize that there’s a problem here, to recognize this is not the way that it ought to be, and that usually is trained in areas that maybe have nothing to do with what the the situation actually is. But in terms of this, we have an example biblically of that kind of system of injustice. In the early church, the Greek widows were not being cared for in the way that the Jewish widows were. And so what happened? The Greek widows, made this known.they appealed for resolution, for this. So the apostles knew then that there is a problem. They sought the will of the Lord to say, how do we address it? And they came up with a way to address it. SO there’s a there’s a sense of first having the ability to even recognize the problem, which means bearing one another’s burdens, because sometimes we’re able to say, oh, this, this is not that big a deal because it doesn’t affect me.

And then I think to ask, where, where is the power that I’ve been given. So I think a lot about what John the Baptist does, at the Jordan River when you had soldiers and tax collectors who are coming up to him and saying, what do we do now? Because, I mean, you just think about the way that you could have thought through how to answer that. Tax collectors were collaborating with Rome.the occupying the people of God soldiers doing the same thing. But John doesn’t say, don’t be a tax collector. Don’t be a soldier. He says, don’t use your power to defraud or to extort. And so I think that there are there are ways in which we have to constantly kind of be asking, what are the problems that I actually have the power to speak to that don’t don’t affect me. So I’m, I’m counting others, as Scripture says, more important than myself, to say, where can I weigh in on this? And that, that often takes that bearing one another’s burdens of actually knowing.how it affects people. Before I can even speak to it.

Yeah. You know, the story that you mentioned has always struck me, too, because, as you know, wise and discerning as you know, those early church authorities were it took basically the wronged widows coming to them to be like, yo, we are we are being mistreated. We are, victims of injustice from, you know, some of your underlings.they had not they were not the ones to pick up on it. It was the widows who had them, which is, which is also sort of the responsibility that we that we have to, you know, to raise the, the subject.

Yeah. And I mean, I think sometimes, because we, we rightly know Scripture says, don’t cling to your own rights and consider yourself a servant of all people, which is true. We sometimes think, well, that means that anytime that I’m appealing to a situation that is affecting me, that I’m sinning. Well, that’s obviously not true, because not only in that case, it’s it’s also, I think, of when, when Paul is in the jail at Philippi and, earthquake, he’s released. And the message is, they want you to go away quietly. And what Paul says is they’ve arrested somebody unlawfully treated me unlawfully. Let them come here and tell me that face to face. Well, why is he doing that? It’s not because Paul is concerned about hoarding his own, rights and protecting himself. Obviously, that’s not the case with the way that he lives out his entire life. It’s that he knows the way that they’re responding to him is also the way that they’re responding to, other vulnerable people. And for him to go away quietly, would simply perpetuate that. And so sometimes, when you actually are making known what’s happening to you that’s unjust. It’s actually about other people. It’s about maybe even people that that aren’t even here yet that you’re working for.

You know, part of what you’ve described, even through your stories, you know, we all would love to have a few simple principles that we could apply as a grid and figure out what the right thing to do is, and that’s that. And what you’ve described is, discernment, possible error, you know, being told by others this isn’t and listening. There’s a lot of humility involved.and it’s perhaps understandable why, you know, there has been, explicit arguments, a lot of talk about one way to kind of alleviate some of the tension, that Romans 13, describes with, call it a Christian Caesar, a Christian strongman, someone who would essentially be, you know, a strong leader who would embody Christian principles. And so, we wouldn’t have to worry as much about whether, his edicts were, aligned with biblical principles or not. What’s wrong with a Christian? With seeking a Christian Caesar?

Well, I think there’s several things wrong.I mean, even before we get to what Jesus taught us, which I’ll get to in a minute, you just look through the history of how that has happened and the abuse of power that comes whenever you have a fuzing of the civil authority that deals with the outsides, the outside realities and a, a religious authority that is meant to transform from the inside out. What you end up with is somebody who is able to have power by saying, if you oppose me, not only are you opposing leadership. You’re also opposing God. And that I mean, that’s the fusion we see with Pharaoh, with Caesar, with the revelation portrayal of the beast and the Roman Empire, all of those things. And we’ve got Jesus, who I mean, if you think about Caesar’s coin that we appeal to a lot, what we sometimes don’t pay attention to, is Jesus is being trapped here.they’re seeking to trap him because if he says, either answer. If he says yes, pay your taxes to Caesar, then he’s saying, these occupiers over the throne of David are legitimate and violates Scripture by saying that. And if he says, don’t pay taxes to Caesar, he’s saying insurrection.and what he does is so brilliant because he’s taking down Caesar,In this completely sideways way by throwing the coin back and saying, ha! He’s got his picture on it.

It apparently means a lot to him, so give it to him. Let’s render to God the things that are God’s and so you have this, you have this sense of in a world where Caesar was all important.I mean, the same thing you think about. Where does Jesus choose to bring out that question?who do you say that I am?it’s at Caesarea Philippi, named after the family that tried to execute him as a baby and the government that would execute him.just a bit later. And he speaks there. I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. So there’s a sense in which part of what Jesus does is to, remove that sense of ultimacy That these these political leaders, tend to take on, in order to say you actually have something that’s above that. And, I mean, that’s one of the things you think about the American experiment.that’s one of the things that regardless of whether with the founders, it it whether they were deists or,Orthodox Christians or whatever they were, they all had a sense it’s important that we recognize that there is something above the state.

There’s something that actually morally holds the state accountable. And I think that’s how we how we perceive when we talk about the tension and why it’s difficult.I mean, we actually already know how that works in almost everything because there are situations where, I mean, for instance, I had a guy who, came up to me not long ago and said, I just, I feel like,God is angry with me. I think he’s a Christian. I feel like God’s, God is disappointed in me. And I’m just I’m terrified of God. And what I, what I had to do is to come in and say the grace of God. God already knows, all of the things going on in your life. God. God receives you on the basis of Jesus, not on the basis of yourself. Rest. Now, if that same guy had come up to me and said, you know, I’m doing some cocaine smuggling and, you know, partying with some prostitutes and so forth, and, you know, but Jesus loves me unconditionally. Grace of God. So let’s just have a good time if I if my response to him had been, well, just rest in who you are in Christ, I would have been saying something untrue to him because of his context, I would have been implying there’s no need for you to pursue holiness.

And if I had said to the first guy, obedience and holiness of God, even though that’s all completely true, that would have been furthering him in this sense of I have to perform.so we already know how that is. And, and the same thing would be the case if somebody comes to you and says,I’m just kind of tired of dealing with my spouse. I want to leave. You come in. You talk about permanence of one flesh union. You talk about, these sorts of things. If that’s somebody who’s coming to you who says I’m being beaten up by my spouse, and you say those things without recognizing the Bible also puts a limit on that kind of, authority. You’re also suggesting something that’s not true, even though they’re saying the same thing in both cases.it always, in everything requires discernment to say not just what does God require, but what does God require here?

Yeah, you know that. Well, discernment is so vital. And one of the areas I wanted to ask you about, like where we apply discernment, is, you talked a little bit earlier about just, you know, how revolutionary it was for our faith to be above the state. You know, the challenge that Jesus poses to to empire, by the fact that our first allegiance and our first identity is in him as opposed to in the state, you know, most, leaders seeking power or many movements seeking power in some ways implicitly acknowledge the extraordinary and the ultimate power of faith and often try to co-opt it towards their own ends. It can be an incredibly effective way for people to gain power by essentially claiming, as you mentioned earlier, well, you know, this is God’s way. Follow me. And you’re following in the ways of God.it’s been true, and not only in our time, but in many times. This is, there’s rarely, there have been some, but rarely is there an incredibly powerful person, movement or even regime that has not in some way sought and often sought successfully to co-opt religion.what kind of, guides for discernment would you offer to people who are trying to discern between leaders who do seek to faithfully follow the ways of Jesus, and those who may be trying to use faith, as an instrument, to basically expand their own authority.

Well, I would say let’s pay attention to what Jesus says about what it actually looks like to, follow him, pray in secret.in your father, who is in secret will hear you. Do not practice your works before. Before people to be seen by people. Don’t let your right hand know what the left hand is, is doing. So in a lot of cases, especially in our context, the, the people who are most responsible with the kind of power they’re being given who are Christians tend to also be the most careful about not using that.and so they’re the ones who are really guarding the ability. I see a lot of people who are doing that who will even when they say, my Christian faith informs my conscience that we ought to care about this particular issue. And here’s how I think we ought to carry that out. But really, really carefully, qualifies. I’m fallible, and I could be wrong on the way that we do this.but I’m really motivated in terms of how we do it. That’s very different than somebody who is very, using this sense of because I’m a Christian, and, and because you’re Christians, then that means that what I say is the Christian way, and we ought to to do it.

So there’s a, there’s a sense of, of humility there. I mean, we even see that,I was I was pounding my head into the table last week when I saw,a survey which was headlined that Gen Z, this Gen Z focus group. They had, reading the New Testament for the first time. They were really, annoyed with Jesus because, as one person said, he seems to have a messiah complex, and. Okay, well, you’re missing the point, but but it’s actually, the the actual messiah seems to be almost the only person, in his entire world who doesn’t have a messiah complex in the way that this person meant it, because you think about, him saying, I’m I’m not here to judge between the two of you on your inheritance, but that’s that’s not what? So there’s not a use of,a use of power in that kind of manipulative and coercive way. There’s a constant seeking of limits.and I think that’s that’s one of the ways, I mean, of course, you know, people can people can manipulate and use anything, but that’s that’s one of the rules of thumb I tend to use.

Yeah. You in just a second we’re going to go to questions from our viewers. But one more thing I wanted to ask you about, which is, of course, another one of our biblical obligations of citizenship is that we are commanded to seek the welfare of the community.and of the land. And of course, any community in land is going to have difference and some diversity.and, you know, this command is also given in the context of, you know, a time when it was it was certainly not the norm and far from it to be concerned about, the least and the last, you know, the Roman Empire, those folks were utterly disposable, not worth a care. And it’s a a revolutionary idea that we should actually be deeply concerned with the welfare of people, either that we that are beneath us or unlike us. And I, I’d love to hear your thoughts before we transition to questions from our viewers about what that looks like.you know, in the here and now, and how we might we, in our current context, might think about taking seriously the welfare of the city.

Well, I think in some ways it’s going to look different, for different people in terms of gifting, temperament, opportunity, place. In the same way, if you think about the way that,Paul talks about the unity of the church, but with many different giftings and many different callings. So you’re going to have people who are in, nobody can do everything. And so one of the things that we have to say is, okay, who are the people around me that it’s most convenient for me to keep invisible? And how do I then care for them? And then some of it happens in terms of circumstantial, what seems to be just coincidence that you’re in this place? I mean, the the in Jesus’s parable of the, of the Samaritan, the the Samaritan isn’t starting up the Jericho Victims Fund and then and then going out to find somebody, he encounters this man beaten on the side of the road and is moved with compassion. Now, that starts with a long formation of I think the Samaritan was in situations where he had to respond with compassion to people in much smaller sorts of situations that was shaping him, informing him for that encounter. So I think sometimes you have to have people who say, well, what am I particularly gifted to do? I mean, I think about all the time with, about this church I was in, I don’t know how many years ago where a guy stood up and said, you know, I know we’ve got a lot of single moms in our community, and a lot of them can’t get back and forth to work because they don’t have reliable cars.

God’s gifted me to be an auto mechanic, and one of the things I think I can do is to be out here every first Saturday of the month and just sort of help with basic auto repair, show you how to change spark plugs and and do those sorts of things. Well, the minute that he did that, you could kind of see people lighting up all through that church who couldn’t do that, but they could think, well, wait a minute, I’m an accountant. There actually is something that I can contribute. So that tends to each one of those little acts tends to tends to create more just in terms of putting the imagination in front of the person. And I think often of, you know, Marilynne Robinson and Gilead has this line where it says that in every encounter with every person. I’m asking, what is God asking of me in this moment? And it’s really easy for us because everybody’s life is fast paced in all kinds of ways. We all have all these obligations that we tend to just forget the people, poet David Whyte says. We forget those who aren’t moving at the same velocity as us.but if you can intentionally stop and say, okay, who am I not seeing? And what is God asking of me here?God answers that that prayer.

Yeah, that’s a beautiful example. I will turn to questions from our viewers, and there’s a bunch of them all queued up. We actually have two related questions about Bonhoeffer. So I’ll combine those two and you can probably answer them together. A Rufus Runnels asked “While there is broad familiarity with Bonhoeffer’s concern about the Christian cost of discipleship, it’s also clear that Bonhoeffer equally struggled with the cost of citizenship in his time. Would you ponder the question of the Christian cost of citizenship from Bonhoeffer perspective in our time? And then, somewhat relatedly, TB um asked, can you speak to Bonhoeffer in light of Romans 13, in light of him being part of the group that tried to overthrow and assassinate Hitler?

Okay. Well, let’s put aside whether Bonhoeffer was involved in assassinating Hitler, which I think is a contested idea, but we won’t argue with that. That one right now. What Bonhoeffer did, of course, is to defy the authority of the Hitler state. Rightly so. What we often forget is that Bonhoeffer was one of the few. I mean, if you look back, even with the Confessing Church, most of them were not saying we don’t want to be Nazis.they were saying, this is going too far in terms of the way that it’s being applied to the church, specifically, Bonhoeffer and Bart and others were saying, no, what we’re dealing with here is deeper than that. It’s a a crisis of love of neighbor in terms of what’s happening to Jews and to others. And, it’s also a theological problem because you have a state taking on the role of God. And so this has to be resisted. I think history has proven Bonhoeffer to be right.because, you know, you just look at the way that that that people responding to Bonhoeffer, at the very beginning.

Oh, you’re being hysterical. It’s not going to lead to that and so forth until it did. And I think what Bonhoeffer was willing to say is, this is asking us to render to Caesar that which belongs to God, and it is creating a a predatory state that is justified by its own power, which is, of course, exactly what revelation 13 depicts. People say, who is like the beast? Who can, who can fight against him? The power itself brings the moral legitimacy. Bonhoeffer Bart said, no, what we’re dealing with here is idolatry.and we cannot we cannot resist it.we cannot help but resist it. And I think that’s what,I think that’s if you look at that Daniel Paradigm that we’re talking about earlier, I think Bonhoeffer had the wisdom to know I’m not in a, in a are you going to eat vegetables or my food?moment. We’re in a will you bow down to this golden statue, moment and was willing then to pay the cost of following Jesus in that? I think that I think that was right.

Yeah. So a question from David Pavey, who asks, how can our perspective of citizenship be an expression of first Peter One 2:11, in which Christians are considered to be either exiles or sojourners?

Well, that’s a that’s a really good question. And I think,I think one of the things that we you referenced earlier, Lewis, talking about, the, the responsibilities that go beyond the, the state and the family and all of our other roles. So you can’t actually be a good citizen if you don’t have a degree of homelessness. And here’s why.the same way if you have. I noticed years ago that when I would start talking to people who were cohabiting and not getting married, I assumed that the argument that they would give me is that they had too low a view of marriage.it’s just a piece of paper. What do I almost never encountered that it was almost always the reverse that you had people with this super high view of marriage. That said, I’m waiting to make sure that this person is my soulmate who can completely, meet all of my needs. Or I’m going to make sure that there’s not any risk that we will ever split up or make each other miserable. Well, that that putting that view of marriage at that exalted level means that they’re not going to be able to be, good as people who are married. The people, the parents who for whom their children are number one above everything tend to be the people whose children just are an extension of themselves.

And what tends to happen is they’re the ones putting great pressure on their children to be perfect, because that’s an existential threat to them. If they’re not the the people, though, who actually are able to be good husbands and wives, good parents, good neighbors are those who say, I’m not smothering you with expectations that you are my identity. Holy. Yeah.I’m instead, because you’re number two.in my life, I’m actually able to love you more. And I think the same thing is true in terms of a state where sojourners and exiles and notice that what Peter does with that, he says, you’re sojourners and exiles. Honor the Emperor and keep yourself unstained from the world. All of that is there because it’s not ultimate.and that puts a little bit that that makes the kind of world we’re in right now really, really hard because politics has become a religion, and we tend to evaluate, we tend to want politics to do for us what community is meant to do. And, and belonging is meant to do. So what we want to do is to say, okay, who are my people? And I’m with them and they’re completely right. And the people who are opposed to us are completely wrong. Well, what is that at? At basis. A basis it’s a fear of if I’m not completely aligned.

Then somehow I don’t belong. Where? If you have people who have the confidence to know I belong to the body of Christ.I have a home to which I’m. I’m going. They then have the ability to engage with our worship and and often that means people who are kind of strangely homeless in, in a way, because they don’t they don’t feel as though they completely fit in some in some tribe. Well, yeah, because that’s not meant to be home. Right. You’re meant to. And if you look at Hebrews 11, the fact, the reason that’s so disorienting for us to say, I’m actually not going to have a utopia.even just a utopia of my own, belonging, until the fulfillment of the kingdom of God.that puts you in a situation where you don’t have a blueprint, you don’t have a map.you simply have a way. And so that’s what Hebrews 11 talks about. Abraham went out not knowing where he was going, and he could have turned back at any point and gone back if he can, if he could consider that to be home. But he was seeking a different city. He was seeking another homeland. If we have that idea, we’re actually better able to be good Americans.

Then somehow I don’t belong. Where? If you have people who have the confidence to know I belong to the body of Christ.I have a home to which I’m. I’m going. They then have the ability to engage with our worship and and often that means people who are kind of strangely homeless in, in a way, because they don’t they don’t feel as though they completely fit in some in some tribe. Well, yeah, because that’s not meant to be home. Right. You’re meant to. And if you look at Hebrews 11, the fact, the reason that’s so disorienting for us to say, I’m actually not going to have a utopia.even just a utopia of my own, belonging, until the fulfillment of the kingdom of God.that puts you in a situation where you don’t have a blueprint, you don’t have a map.you simply have a way. And so that’s what Hebrews 11 talks about. Abraham went out not knowing where he was going, and he could have turned back at any point and gone back if he can, if he could consider that to be home. But he was seeking a different city. He was seeking another homeland. If we have that idea, we’re actually better able to be good Americans.

Yeah. In some way, that relates to a next question from an anonymous attendee, who says, I’m a person with particular political views and denomination that seems to be lurching ever further the other way. I love the heart for service that my congregation demonstrates, but man, I’m barely hanging on amidst the discourse. All the churches in my small town seem equally polarized in one direction or the other. Can you offer some wisdom?

Well, I think it would depend on what that congregation is asking you to do. So if I’m in a congregation where, I mean, I say all the time, to to my wife,I said, isn’t it fantastic that at our in our congregation, I have no idea how anybody voted? I mean, they all know where I am, but it’s just because I’m a public figure in those areas.but no, nobody has ever brought it up.and I don’t know which enables me then to be able to. It’s not that I wouldn’t. I hope it’s not that I wouldn’t love them regardless. But it takes the pull of temptation not to away. But if I’m in a congregation, if I were in a congregation where everybody seemed to be moving in a direction politically away from me, that would not be a deal breaker unless that was becoming the focus of the congregation.and it wouldn’t be because of me.it would be because I would say we’re actually putting something above the gospel of Jesus Christ or something in addition to the gospel of Jesus Christ.as the mission of this church and that I can’t do that hurts. That hurts other people.

so you have to kind of say, how extreme is this? And is there a congregation where I might be out of step politically? But they’re not going to see that as heresy. They’re just going to see it as disagreement. When you find a congregation like that, I think you could, just as we all do in our families. I mean, there’s not a family in the United States. I don’t think that doesn’t have people who are who are differing.and what do you what do you have to do? What do you have to do is to say, okay, for us to love each other. We don’t have to talk about, you know, foreign policy or whatever it is. I, I love you as my mom or as my dad or my grandfather or whoever it is.and so you’re not going to change me. I’m not going to change you. Can we just agree to that and just love each other? That that takes that’s not a one time thing. That takes that takes a constant sort of rechecking in. But most people can do it. If you find a congregation like that,I would say you can exist in that.

Yeah. So another question from an anonymous attendee, and they ask,I need to understand how to pray for leaders. I pray Psalm ten, but I also pray that I might love my enemies, the powerful, oppressive, careless people who use God’s name to further their own goals. Please help me understand how I should pray for this country, how to pray for these people when I really want them to go away, and even how to love them. I really do, but I really try. But I don’t know the words. I just keep coming back to Psalm ten.

I have a friend who just recently, took up portrait sketching, drawing, sketching people’s faces. He’s really good at it. And one of the things he was showing me his notebook and going through it, and he said, one of the things I’ve decided to do is to draw the faces of my enemies. People who have really hurt me. Because it helps me. Because as I’m drawing them, I start to see the humanity and the complexity, even of people that I think are kind of awful.and that enables me to kind of pray for them. So I think there’s at one level, we’re constantly praying for justice and for accountability and for wisdom and for peace.but what I’ve found is that when there’s a, a figure, a political figure that I find particularly blood pressure raising, for me,I spend some time praying for some personal area of flourishing for that person, and to say I’m. What I’m not saying is, oh, I want this person to have a successful execution of his or her policies. If I think those policies are unjust, that would be sin for me to do that.but I can pray. Would you give, good wisdom and decision making to this person and to find some area, would you would you give a sense of joy for this person in terms of, his or her children or.

Yes, whatever it is that we’re that that I’m, I’m looking at, what you have to watch out for is what? And I’ve seen this in my own life.sometimes we don’t want to. We don’t want to pray, even for somebody to make the right decisions because we want them to go away.and so it actually, if a if a leader that I oppose makes a good and wise decision, sometimes it’s like, well, that just empowers all the bad decisions because it’s here. Well, in that case, we kind of get into a Jonah, situation where you don’t really want somebody to do the right thing.you want them to consistently do the wrong thing so that they’ll fall. Notice that in yourself. And don’t expect yourself to be all the way along in sanctification. But see if there’s one thing you can find,that you can say. Would you would you just give this person, freedom from anxiety, or something along those lines? Would you, would you, help this person in terms of health? You know, find a way to, to do that while at the same time you’re praying. And we have lots of examples in Scripture of this Lord, frustrate the hands of those who are doing injustice. You can do both of those at the same time.

Russell, this has been a delight. And in just a moment, I want to give you the last word to close us out. But before that, a few things just to share with all of you who are watching. First, immediately after we conclude we will be sending around an online feedback form. We would love for you to fill this out. We always read them. We try to take your advice to heart and as a small token of our appreciation for you doing so, we will give you a code for a free Trinity Forum reading download of your choice. There are several that we would recommend that are quite germane to the conversation, even ones that we have mentioned today, including Martin Luther King Jr’s letter from Birmingham Jail, Reinhold Niebuhr, Children of Light and Children of Darkness,Augustine’s City of God, and many others. So hope that you’ll take advantage of that. In addition, tomorrow we’ll be sitting around an email with a lightly edited video link of today’s online conversation, as well as a list of other readings and further resources. If you want to go, dig a little bit deeper into this topic. We do this because we would love for you to share this conversation, and these materials with other people in your own community to start a conversation and work together towards what it means to better love God, your, and your neighbor. In addition, we’d love to invite all of you who are watching us to join the Trinity Forum Society, which is the community of people who help advance Trinity Forum’s mission of cultivating, curating, and disseminating the best of Christian thought for the common good.

There are quite a few benefits in being a member of the Trinity Forum society, including a subscription to our quarterly readings, a subscription to our daily What We’re Reading list of curated reading recommendations, and as a special incident. For those of you who are joining the Trinity Forum society, or with your gift of $150 or more, we will make available to you a free and customized Faithful Citizenship Trinity Forum Reading Collection, which includes politics, morality and Civility by Vaclav Havel. The City of God by Augustine. The Children of Light and Children of Darkness by Reinhold Niebuhr. Letter from Birmingham. Jail and Democracy in America. So we would love for you to take advantage of that opportunity. We would love to welcome you into the Trinity Forum Society.I’ll also note we have a whole bunch of online conversations scheduled for the months ahead, which will include guests such as Mako Fujimura and Hasan Fujimura, Tish Harrison, Warren, and many others. So be on the lookout for those invitations.there’ll be a lot more to come. And also, as a reminder that we take these online conversations and put them into a podcast, the Trinity Forum Conversations Podcast, which releases every other Tuesday. We’d love for you to like and subscribe. In addition, I would also just like to thank my teammates and colleagues at Trinity Forum Tom Walsh, Francis Owens, Campbell Vogel, MacRae Henke and Marianne Morris, who do so much incredible work in putting the work and mission of the Trinity Forum in action. And finally, as promised, Russell, the last word is yours.

You know, Cherie, right before I came here, I was recording, a session on my podcast with Alan Levi, the author of the book Theo of Golden. And before I did, I asked, people on social media what kind of questions those of you who’ve read that book and, and you’re captivated by. What sorts of questions would you want me to ask the author? And the number one question, all over the place was, is Theo the main character of this elderly man who’s showing these acts of kindness toward people based on a real person. And I said, you know, I think behind that is another question. And that is in this time of cynicism and in this time where we have seen so many awful things, is it even possible for somebody to be truly, kind, loving, gentle, wise, or is it always just a way to, to achieve more power? I think that’s the question people are asking. And I think the danger for us right now, whether it comes to citizenship or in every other way, is to have such low expectations that we start to expect nothing but base level depravity. What happens then is that we’ll just empower that and we will give up, become demoralized and simply withdraw. We actually have a a scripture that gives us an understanding that people can, actually live up to ideals and decency. Part of that requires that we model it. And part of it requires that we actually pray for it and expect it and hold people accountable for it. And that means not giving up. So I would just say my last word would be the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not. The darkness cannot, and the darkness will not overcome it.

Thanks, Russell. It’s been great to talk with you. Thank you to all of you for joining us. Have a great weekend.